Curse

Tyla · Apr 14, 2008, 07:01 PM // 19:01

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Throw Dirt is not the only skill that blinds.

Wtf? I'm explaining how predictable the enemies are.

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If you are already using BHA for the daze, like you have mentioned in your previous posts, then D-Shot would just be a waste. The additional recharge of D-Shot does not trigger on a dazed target. The daze interruption would take effect before D-Shot.

I understand that. D-Shot also disables non-spell skills too.

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I am aware of condition removal blah blah blah. Nobody is saying that a Ranger's weaknesses make it impossible for a Ranger to interrupt. Nevertheless, they are still weaknesses that ought to be called out during this discussion.

Yet when these weaknesses can be stopped, you might aswell take the things to stop them? Your common Monk, Necro, Rit or whatever skillbars usually contain condition removal, and if you're going to be seeing alot of it, Sight Beyond Sight (Although crappy) can be used.

Bront · Apr 14, 2008, 11:52 PM // 23:52

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Originally Posted by Tyla

The flight time makes it alot easier to inerrupt things, and prediction is based on 2 factors anyway, luck and observation.

Ok, so your ranger has to include flight time in his predictions. So a Mesmer can chose not to, and gets more time to prepare for predictions.

Luck, well, luck flows both ways, and the ranger is not luckier than the mesmer, so that's no advantage.

Observation, well, a ranger and mesmer can both observe, so no edge here.

Basicly, Rangers have an advantage of giving the Dazed condition, and all of their interupts do interupt all skills. However, because of the flight time, they are forced to predict (realize, being forced to predict is not an advantage), as for shorter casting times (1S), they might have trouble getting a twitch interrupt in. Rangers are generaly imune to caster hate/interupts due to the speed of their skills and they are not spells, but some conditions can harm a ranger, and they do need line of site (Yes, condition removal and positioning, but that's time you're not available for interupting).

Mesmers, meanwhile, have many specialized interupts, and while many of their cooler ones only effect spells and chants, they have some that effect all actions ([cof] and [Leech Signet] for example), so they do still have that flexability. Because they lack the flighttime, and have fast casting, they have a slight (.2-1 second, probably closer to .5) edge on the ranger in timing, allowing them to not only use prediction, but reaction to what they interupt, allowing them to be a bit pickier with what they interupt. In addition, they are generally not stooped by conditions, caster hate via interupts is generaly not effective, but other effects can hurt (Backfire, Arcane Languor, Equinox) the interuptor. If going into an extreme situation, it's possible to bring 7-8 interrupts on a mesmer as well.

Both are subject to skill denial like blackout or diversion. Not particularly common in PvE.

Recharge time isn't as much of an issue, as a 40/40 set or 20/20/20 staff can easily fix that for the Mesmer.

Basicly, I find that a mesmer is a better interuptor in PvE and PvP, for all the reasons I mentioned above.

However, a ranger often has other utility value beyond being an interrupter, while the Mesmer has a little less general utility outside of the interrupter role.

Tyla · Apr 15, 2008, 12:07 AM // 00:07

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Originally Posted by Bront

Basicly, Rangers have an advantage of giving the Dazed condition, and all of their interupts do interupt all skills. However, because of the flight time, they are forced to predict (realize, being forced to predict is not an advantage), as for shorter casting times (1S), they might have trouble getting a twitch interrupt in.

The average human reflex is 0.25.

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Rangers are generaly imune to caster hate/interupts due to the speed of their skills and they are not spells, but some conditions can harm a ranger, and they do need line of site (Yes, condition removal and positioning, but that's time you're not available for interupting).

An open enviorement will fix that. The enemies determine where you should be in the battlefield, and if your enemies aren't anywhere near you, neither can do anything.

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Mesmers, meanwhile, have many specialized interupts, and while many of their cooler ones only effect spells and chants, they have some that effect all actions ([cof] and [Leech Signet] for example), so they do still have that flexability.

Apart from their recharges, and their cost? A 14 Expertise Savage Shot can be spammed on recharge for that 2-arrow burst of damage, speeding up condition spread with Apply Poison or whatever.
You're also missing the OTHER key point. D-Shot has a 20+ recharge on interrupt effect.

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Because they lack the flighttime, and have fast casting, they have a slight (.2-1 second, probably closer to .5) edge on the ranger in timing, allowing them to not only use prediction, but reaction to what they interupt, allowing them to be a bit pickier with what they interupt. In addition, they are generally not stooped by conditions, caster hate via interupts is generaly not effective, but other effects can hurt (Backfire, Arcane Languor, Equinox) the interuptor. If going into an extreme situation, it's possible to bring 7-8 interrupts on a mesmer as well.

You're forgetting things like Guilt. You're also forgetting the lack of 1/2 cast skills.

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Recharge time isn't as much of an issue, as a 40/40 set or 20/20/20 staff can easily fix that for the Mesmer.

You're still running a chance, and you're not dealing any *true* secondary effects.

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However, a ranger often has other utility value beyond being an interrupter, while the Mesmer has a little less general utility outside of the interrupter role.

You can also run things such as Ward Against Melee ect. as utility skills. Diversion, Shame, Guilt...

bj91x · Apr 15, 2008, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Generally, this is how I use interrupters in PVE.

If the enemy that needs to be interrupted is the same enemy my party will be attacking, then R. Dazed plus several allies pounding on a foe = win.

If the enemy that needs to be interrupted is not the enemy that my party will be attacking, then Me. Me's almost instant interrupts = win.

Coloneh · Apr 15, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

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Originally Posted by bj91x

If the enemy that needs to be interrupted is the same enemy my party will be attacking, then R. Dazed plus several allies pounding on a foe = win.

If the enemy that needs to be interrupted is not the enemy that my party will be attacking, then Me. Me's almost instant interrupts = win.

this would be nice. excepy you can only have 8 people in a party, so you have to cut the crap. (i.e the mesmer) rangers do both jobs well.

cellardweller · Apr 16, 2008, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Its important to realise the situations in which an interrupter is at all useful for PvE teams.
1) hard hitting bosses.
Hard hitting melee bosses are not shut down by interrupts so were talking about a caster boss. In this case Daze is the best solution so rangers or paragons are the correct response.
2) Multiple healers in a group
Straight DPS will blow straight through 2 or 3 healers as fast as a team with an interrupter but will probably slow down against 4. To my knowledge this is as big as healing groups come (4 centaurs in maguma and northern shiverpeaks, 4 dolyak masters in dedrimore) so you only need to shut down one of the 1 healers for your normal dps team to clean up the rest. As we already know daze is the best response to this situation taking us back to rangers and paragons.

Thats not to say that mesmers are not good at interrupting multiple enemeies and generally slowing down the red-dot casters, its just that that this role is not needed in PvE and takes up the party slot that would be better filled by another meatgrinder.

DarkSpirit · Apr 16, 2008, 02:32 AM // 02:32

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Originally Posted by cellardweller

2) Multiple healers in a group
Straight DPS will blow straight through 2 or 3 healers as fast as a team with an interrupter but will probably slow down against 4. To my knowledge this is as big as healing groups come (4 centaurs in maguma and northern shiverpeaks, 4 dolyak masters in dedrimore) so you only need to shut down one of the 1 healers for your normal dps team to clean up the rest. As we already know daze is the best response to this situation taking us back to rangers and paragons.

Only for NM, which is so easy that almost any half-decent build would work but that is the easy mode where most people usually play in. For HM, straight physical DPS H/H team builds against mixed caster mobs usually do not work well, especially since monster levels are much higher and their attacks are more devastating than in NM.

I also find that those who say mesmers are weaker than rangers, in every aspect, tend to be NM-only players and have not played mesmers much in HM. Although Rangers can be configured to be a better interrupter with daze, they would be quite lacking on the damage side if they do, while a mesmer can bring interrupts and still do more effective damage in HM.

Many disagreements in this forum, can be traced back to the difference in perspective between playing in 2 different modes.

cellardweller · Apr 16, 2008, 02:50 AM // 02:50

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Only for NM, which is so easy that almost any half-decent build would work. For HM, straight DPS H/H team builds against mixed caster mobs usually do not work well, especially since monster levels are much higher and their attacks are more devastating than in NM.

I find that those who says mesmers are weaker than rangers, in every aspect, tend to be NM-only players and have not played mesmers much in HM. Although Rangers can be configured to be a better interrupter with daze, they would be quite lacking on the damage side if they do, while a mesmer can bring interrupts and still do more effective damage in HM.

Would I bring up maguma and northern shiverpeaks centaurs if I meant NM? A single cast of Mark of Pain is enough to out DPS 2 HM healers.

DarkSpirit · Apr 16, 2008, 03:00 AM // 03:00

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Originally Posted by cellardweller

Would I bring up maguma and northern shiverpeaks centaurs if I meant NM? A single cast of Mark of Pain is enough to out DPS 2 HM healers.

Although a well placed MoP is powerful, MoP doesn't hold the answers to HM. A single cast of mark of pain would not help if you dont cast it in the right place and on the right monster. If your target dies fast, your MoP wouldn't be useful either. Not to mention AoE scatter from your H/H and monster body blocking your melee.

I suggest you try your Rangers/Paragons interrupters and physical straight DPS team against the Charrs in HM Dalada Uplands, right outside Doomlore Shrine to see what I am trying to say.

Coloneh · Apr 16, 2008, 03:25 AM // 03:25

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

For HM, straight physical DPS H/H team builds against mixed caster mobs usually do not work well, especially since monster levels are much higher and their attacks are more devastating than in NM.

huwhat? guess i should stop playing paragon with physicals and orders then?
/sarcasm

DarkSpirit · Apr 16, 2008, 03:33 AM // 03:33

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Originally Posted by Coloneh

huwhat? guess i should stop playing paragon with physicals and orders then?

Since you dont even know where Grothmar Wardowns is, I suggest you complete the campaign first.

RhanoctJocosa · Apr 16, 2008, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Physicals + splinter + orders > any hm

cellardweller · Apr 16, 2008, 04:37 AM // 04:37

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Although a well placed MoP is powerful, MoP doesn't hold the answers to HM. A single cast of mark of pain would not help if you dont cast it in the right place and on the right monster.

So you're saying that if you don't use your skills properly, they might not work?

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If your target dies fast, your MoP wouldn't be useful either.

Thats why Lyssa gave you assasin's promise.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Not to mention AoE scatter from your H/H and monster body blocking your melee.

You're doing it wrong. Your melee bodyblocking them prevents AoE scatter.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I suggest you try your Rangers/Paragons interrupters and physical straight DPS team against the Charrs in HM Dalada Uplands, right outside Doomlore Shrine to see what I am trying to say.

Been there, done that, have the gold hat - the only interrupt that was needed was brawling headbutt.

Coloneh · Apr 16, 2008, 05:00 AM // 05:00

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Since you dont even know where Grothmar Wardowns is, I suggest you complete the campaign first.

let me get this straight... not memorizing the names of every explorable area makes me bad at the game?

you fail at forums or conversation or something...

snaek · Apr 16, 2008, 05:03 AM // 05:03

cry of pain ftw

Lordhelmos · Apr 16, 2008, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Rangers are superior interruptions because their interrupts are unconditional, recharge extremely fast, and can interrupt any type of skill. The downside is line of sight, which I don't see as too much of a massive issue because a good ranger is keen on positioning anyway.

Mesmer interrupts are costly, higher recharge, only interrupt specific skill types (50% of their interrupts or more are only spell based). The only thing keeping mesmers in the meta right now is the rediculous game swinging power of diverson and cry of frustration's recent buff.

If you take diversion and cry of frustration away from mesmers I promise you will see them completely vanish from GvG.

Most rangers only need to slot savage, dshot, and magebane and hit 123 123 123 123 to be a half decent interrupter. Thats pretty stupid imo.

DarkSpirit · Apr 16, 2008, 08:41 AM // 08:41

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Originally Posted by cellardweller

You're doing it wrong. Your melee bodyblocking them prevents AoE scatter.

No they are melee blocking their monk through their formation.

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Been there, done that, have the gold hat - the only interrupt that was needed was brawling headbutt.

1 brawling headbutt is not going to do you much good in a H/H team. You are over generalizing, but if you are using PUGs you can just Ursanway through most places even without interrupts.

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Originally Posted by Coloneh

let me get this straight... not memorizing the names of every explorable area makes me bad at the game?

And that is why we have the wiki to explain the areas that primary quests reside in. If you dont complete the campaign and try HM, you wont understand.

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Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

Most rangers only need to slot savage, dshot, and magebane and hit 123 123 123 123 to be a half decent interrupter. Thats pretty stupid imo.

I agree that rangers can be configured to be the superior interrupter, but I still think mesmers pack more punch in PvE, through skills like [Cry of Pain], even with interrupt skills on their bar.

cellardweller · Apr 16, 2008, 09:55 AM // 09:55

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

No they are melee blocking their monk through their formation.

Next time you're out, select the monk and autoattack with a melee weapon - you'll see that he automatically kites away in a large clockwise spiral. Stand against with your right shoulder against the wall and and do the same thing and you'll see the monk kite into the wall and then run straight at you to bodyblock himself - charr make this even easier by dragging the whole group with them making them perfect visage fodder. Thus ends Guildwars AI 101.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

1 brawling headbutt is not going to do you much good in a H/H team. You are over generalizing, but if you are using PUGs you can just Ursanway through most places even without interrupts.

I'm sorry but you're very wrong I have a golden hat to says so. I could even have gotten way without BH if I'd bothered to bring frozen soil on a /r hero.

Lordhelmos · Apr 16, 2008, 09:58 AM // 09:58

People don't use Cry of Pain as an interrupt. They use it as a large armor ignorant nuke. The interruption is just a nice bonus. This skill is hailed as such a powerful PvE skill because single foe interruption isn't much of a big deal in PvE; especially when mobs are packing 4-5 guys with the exact same skills. It's not really going to matter if you disable one if 4 others are still hitting you with the same stuff. PvE is all about direct damage and tank and spank strategies. Cry of Pain is nice not because it interrupts, but because people echo it to deal a whole lot of damage through an easy cover hex, most uncaring whether or not they interrupt a skill or not.

As far as an interrupt based build goes, Cry of Pain is more of a nuke than anything else.

However interruption in PvP is a much bigger deal. If you pit a Ranger against a Mesmer, both being half decent players; the mesmer will lose everytime. A combination of quicker interrupts and mending touch to clear any blinds or anti-melee skills like ineptitude will totally crush the mesmer. On top of that, even with fast casting set high most decent mesmers spells still have large cast times and no supporting direct damage skills.

The mesmer will not be able to make the ranger's redbar move while eating arrow DPS at the same time. On top of that, against a magebaner, that Mesmer will be lucky to get a single skill of before the magebane ranger whips his ass.

Its not that mesmer interruption sucks, because it doesn't. It just that ranger interruption, survival, constant DPS, and utility is superior to that of a mesmer. The only reason people don't completely replace rangers with mesmers in gvg is because of Shame, Diversion, and Shatter Enchant.

Although mesmers are hailed as a very powerful PvP class, which they are; the bottom line is that they are completely outclassed by rangers in so many fields, interruption being one and another being snare superiority and survival being more reasons.

Just a classic example of imbalance between classes. In reality, mesmers aren't bad, but the reality behind their existence in the PvP meta is that they are hanging on to the thin thread of Diversion, Shatter, and Shame. Three skills in the domination line that prevent the ranger from completely taking over GvG utility.

So if you want the simplified bullet explanation:

~Ranger interrupts deal damage, are supported by arrow DPS, recharge faster, are universal interrupts that can nail any skill type, and are shot so quickly they are near impossible to interrupt. Mesmer interrupts are completely conditional, have high costs and recharge, and are not supported by any sort of direct damage or weapon DPS a mesmer can bring the the table. Also the most powerful form of mesmer shutdown, being shame and diversion, are interrupt bait to rangers because of their cast time.

~Rangers are not squishy and are hard as hell to kill (screw you natural stride and escape). A mesmer on the other hand, has crappy defensive options and is pretty much ground hamburger in a melee spike without his monk ramming spirit bond or shield of deflection to save him.

~Rangers can snare effectively and have powerful mobility (again with natty stride.) Mesmers have limited mobility and snares that take forever to cast and have long recharge times (imagined burden vs. cripshot.... hmmmm).

Mesmers are far from bad, but they really do live in the shadow of rangers. Ranger utility in this game is just so damn good it nearly puts mesmers out of a job. This is probably why you don't see diversion being nerfed because if they mess with it, Mesmer are going to get the Lu Bu boot out of the metagame for good.

~

Since this is the PvE side of things however, I'll just tell you that a mesmer using Cry of Pain isn't trying to interrupt, hes trying to nuke. Pitted against a ranger, who can bring barrage with great dwarf weapon or splinter weapon and still slot savage and dshot on his bar, the ranger still has more damage, interrupts better, and has far more survivability.

gg mez, we just lose vs. rangers in every field save for 3 skills in domination magic.

DarkSpirit · Apr 16, 2008, 10:16 AM // 10:16

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Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

Since this is the PvE side of things however, I'll just tell you that a mesmer using Cry of Pain isn't trying to interrupt, hes trying to nuke. Pitted against a ranger, who can bring barrage with great dwarf weapon or splinter weapon and still slot savage and dshot on his bar, the ranger still has more damage, interrupts better, and has far more survivability.

gg mez, we just lose vs. rangers in every field save for 3 skills in domination magic.

I dont use Cry of Pain as an interrupt myself, I usually leave the job of interrupting to my heroes. But if I have less lag and I want to bring interrupts, I still have the option to bring along Mantra of Recovery, Cry of Frustration, Cry of Pain, Frustration, PSpike, etc. and still generate good damage.

In a H/H team, the only way to use GDW is on a barrage hero. Savage and DShot combined can be good against a single caster, but just these 2 skills on a ranger hero, are not as useful against an interrupt mesmer hero who can interrupt more than 1 target.

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Originally Posted by cellardweller

Next time you're out, select the monk and autoattack with a melee weapon - you'll see that he automatically kites away in a large clockwise spiral. Stand against with your right shoulder against the wall and and do the same thing and you'll see the monk kite into the wall and then run straight at you to bodyblock himself - charr make this even easier by dragging the whole group with them making them perfect visage fodder. Thus ends Guildwars AI 101.

Visage can work, but I dont like to use it for general PvE. Even though their formation protects their monks, simply killing their Dominator first works out easier for me since it is the only Charr that packs a res. The problem with physical damage classes against them are the 2 Flameshielders with high AoE damage and Aegis. They also stand on opposite corners when their formation is activated. You can bring Mirror of Disenchantment for it but it is still a pain that henchies tend to clump around their AoE.

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I'm sorry but you're very wrong I have a golden hat to says so. I could even have gotten way without BH if I'd bothered to bring frozen soil on a /r hero.

You dont have to use frozen soil, it is easier to just kill the Dominator first.